Daddy, why don’t you go to church with us?

My son and I at a community service project last Fall.

This morning, while sitting at the kitchen table, the question that I had expected my son to eventually ask me, was finally asked. After taking the self-applied clip-on tie off of his undershirt, buttoning his top button, and correctly reseting the tie, he looked at me and said:

“Daddy, why don’t you go to church with us?”

Kim happened to be walking down the hall, but she heard the question and raised her eyebrows at me as if to say “He’s your son!” She realized that this was going to be a man to man conversation, and continued to the bathroom to prepare herself for the upcoming church service.

I looked into my son’s earnest eyes, and contemplated his even more earnest question. As many parents do, I weighed the merits of a short answer that would stop his questioning (but be less than truthful), against a more truthful answer than might take a series of answers and explanations about things that he might have trouble wrapping his mind around. Today, I chose to give him the more honest answer.

I told him that it was because of my beliefs. Although the church and I share some of the same beliefs about living a moral life, we differ on so much more. The main difference, as I told my son, was the church’s view of the other, the outsider, the adherent of another faith, and/or the unrepentant sinner. This church (like many others) believes that after death, certain people will end up in some sort of hell. For most of my life, I have believed the same. But in the past few years, for a variety of reasons, I no longer do.

Before explaining anything else to him, I let him know that despite his desire to be just like me in so many ways, his beliefs would have to be his own. Whether my words of explanation will have any more influence on him than my actions, only time will tell. But, I wanted to express to him how personal everyone’s beliefs are, and how they should have some measure of respect.

After describing hell as a place where people were sad and crying for ever and ever, and where God could not/would not ever see them or rescue them, my son replied that he did not want to ever go there. I told him that some people believe that the population of hell is made up of people who deserve to be there. I shared with him my belief in a God who would not create someone who would eventually end up in hell. In fact, I read a great quote in a book by Samir Selmanovic just yesterday:

“I have become convinced that a God who favors me over others is not worth worshipping.”

In the end, my son walked away with a couple of new thoughts about God and hell, and an apparently sufficient answer about why daddy wasn’t going to church.

Really, I just can’t wrap my head around the belief that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and at the same time that God is the creator of this mess that falls short of Him. If God is responsible for the situations in our life that lead us to make choices, then He is also somewhat responsible for those choices. If He is not responsible for those situations, then everything is just chance and chaos. God cannot judge our actions justly if we are all playing with different pieces on often vastly different game boards.

I’m sure that I could say more about this, but I’ll save it for another time.

Not believing in hell is just a stone’s throw away from not believing in “sin”.  In light of my Christian upbringing, this is a belief that challenges much of what is commonly understood about the purpose and nature of Jesus, the namesake of Christianity. If there is no hell, and there is no sin, then what was Jesus all about? If he was just a great moral teacher, and not God incarnate, then this changes everything. Depending on what criteria you use to classify a Christian, then you may not consider me one anymore. To be honest, I myself often wonder if I should claim that for myself anymore.

I feel like I’m a sort of religious no man’s land. Where I’m going to end up is unclear (pun intended). I just know where I don’t want to be:  In a place where God loves me (enough to give me life in heaven) more than he loves other people (so little that He lets them die in hell). If you’ve found some place where I could find myself more at home, please let me know.

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  • Joy

    Zac,
    First…thanks for having the guts to write this piece. It totally resonated with me( as cliche as that sounds) Your thoughts, subsequent questions and further wrestling with them and god…is refreshing to someone like me…who has in the last 2-3 years anyhow…found themselves in a sort of ambiguous “religious no man’s land” too .I never felt the freedom to be honest about my spiritual struggles and misgivings until recently.
    While I know we ran in similar circles in the past…thru lc.tv…we never really got to know eachother. Seems we have lots of mutual friends in common…Bamfords, Newsomes etc…so many of these people have been invaluable sages as I navigate a new journey…@43 years old!
    I am not sure if you still live in the valley or not…but…I want to extend a WARM invitation for you ( and your family) to visit us @ the Emerging Desert Cohort anytime you feel so inclined. Your questions and spiritual sturggles echo so many of not only my own but those of our entire group as well. It’s the only non ‘virtual’ place I have found that I feel safe to ask, wrestle, doubt, vent, seek, experiment etc.
    You are not alone.

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    Joy,

    Thank you for your kind and encouraging words. If we lived back in AZ, we would surely be apart of the EmDes conversations. Thank you for inviting us, all the same.

    Where is your online community where you ask, wrestle, doubt, vent, seek, and experiment? Perhaps that would be an appropriate next step for me.

  • Ryan

    Wow Zaccy. You freakin pagan. Just kidding. You, like the venerable prophet David Bazan, have let the idea and concept of hell creep in and reprioritize your personal beliefs. The concept of a loving God sending people to eternal torment does not sit well with people of our generation for sure. How can people who were created as sinners be held accountable for how they were created when they had nothing to do with it? It seems either people are following away all together over the issue (Bazan) or restructuring their beliefs to allow for a hell that better fits our definitions of justice (annihilationism, universalism). I think both these alternatives are biblically viable they’re pretty much where I ended up landing. I kinda think that hell is far too ambiguous in scripture to leave the Church over.

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    Thanks for the comment Ry Guy. For the record, I agree with you about the ambiguity of hell in scripture. That was probably my first real struggle in Bible college when I started taking classes on individual books in the Bible. Something just didn’t jive with God’s love and God’s wrath. Over the years, I’ve begun to see how much I read the bible, hear a sermon, read a book, etc. with my own beliefs informing all new information coming in. I believe that this is called eisegesis, as opposed to the more objective exegesis. Now, I’m at the point that I’m not sure that an objective view of any truth really exists. I know, I know. How very postmodern of me!

    Really, as hard as it is for me to believe in hell, it’s just as hard for me to believe in a world where people seek God, but are unable to find Him outside of Jesus. If the Christian life experiencing the Kingdom of God here on earth, then those “outside” are experiencing a type of hell on earth. I just don’t see that from the non-Christians that I have met. If I’m not a Christian, then I am probably a panentheist. Unfortunately, they don’t have a church in my neighborhood.

  • Ryan

    If I move to Evansville we can start one. I’m probably a deist at this point anyway.

  • Joy

    Zac…I couldn’t remember how to get back to your blog sorry for the delayed reply…..Here are a couple of blogs I read and people I have connected with that help me keep my head above water.
    http://kathyescobar.com/2010/01/04/rethinking-the-word-pastor/
    http://jonathanbrink.com/2010/01/19/missional-community-formation-part-1/
    http://communitascollective.com/fiction-and-truth/
    also blogs by Brian McLaren, Frank Viola, Tony Jones, Emergent Village
    of course almost everyone in EmDes blogs and I blog too at http://giveandtake67.blogspot.com/
    The Emerging Church Conference in NM is absolutely worth the investment…we are going.
    Reading these people and their struggles…helps me feel I’m not CRAZY…(sure…going to hell maybe)…but not Crazy (o:
    I hope that if you guys come back to AZ for a visit you’ll stop over and talk etc.!

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    Joy. You’ve set me up for some reading and blog browsing this weekend. I’m looking forward to it.

    I’m not sure when the next trip back to AZ will be, but I’m going to make a trip to EmDes a part of it for sure. Thanks again for sharing this.

  • http://www.everygoodpath.net Mark

    Hi Zac, Mark here from Facebook. If you think about hell, salvation, Jesus, etc. (i.e. the big eternal issues) long enough and follow everything to its conclusion, I’m convinced you either end up at unitarian/universalism or full-on trinitarian/predestination/Calvinism. There’s no middle ground and these destinations are, of course, mutually exclusive. I applaud your willingness to think thoroughly and not settle for a half-baked theology. However, your trajectory is universalism, which I’m convinced is wrong. Email me or message me on FB, if you’re interested, and I can send you a few things that helped me come to the opposite conclusion.
    By the way, nice site design – I love the layout.
    -Mark

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    Thanks Mark! I’ll message you on Facebook. I’m definitely trending more towards universalism. I just can’t be sure that the “others” are wrong, especially if the “others” feel the same way about me.

  • Pingback: If Love Doesn’t Win… | ZacParsons.com

  • Danielle Morris

    Hmmmm……born and raised a devout Catholic and that still make me ponder.

    -Sunny D

  • Phil P.

    I am 34 years old, married for 11 years, and have 2 sons (4 years old and 9 months old). For a long time I have struggled to reconcile my questions regarding God, the church, and the Bible. These are questions that I long left untouched because of my deep commitment to my local church and the understanding of the judgement that would follow many of these questions. After spending 27 years of my life attending the same congregation something happened that helped me to care less about what others thought of me, I became a father.

    If I was going hold fast to a set of beliefs that would likely influence the future beliefs of my sons then I needed to be really honest with myself about how I lived my life. In my heart and mind I simply could not reconcile some of the things I found in the Bible with what I hold to be my own personal morality. Acts of genocide, asking a father to murder his son as a test, the story of Job, encouraging slavery, murdering first born children, and the very confusing idea of Hell; these were all things that made my head race in circles trying to find the logic in the illogical.

    It all started with the realization that I did not believe in Hell. Never in my most evil moments would I condemn anyone to infinite torture. How can a lifetime of sin be punishable with timeless torment, their is no fairness or justice to that system. This brought more questions. Am I more gracious than God? Isn’t offering rewards for doing what someone wants, and punishment for undesired behavior the very definition of manipulation? Did God really murder a man’s entire family just to prove a point to the Satan, or when God does it is it not really sin (paging Mr. Nixon)?

    All of these questions made my brain and heart hurt. I could no longer sit in the pew and read from a book that I found flawed. I felt like I was lying to myself about my beliefs in order to be accepted by those around me. It was a tough conversation, but I told my wife that I could no longer attend church. It would not be right to attend and be uninvolved, that is the worst. But I also did not feel like I should be involved with an organization that I had fundamental issues with. I still feel some guilt about the stigma my wife would face being that lone mother dragging her kids to church while her absentee husband was in bed on Sunday mornings, but just knowing that judgement exists helps to solidify my choice.

    I still have many questions and few answers, but I don’t want to have a set of beliefs that requires me to ignore my own common sense and ability to reason in order to fall in line. Your blog has helped tremendously. I know someday I will have to answer my children’s questions, and I appreciate you sharing your own experience.

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    Phil,

    Thank you sincerely for your honest post. It’s been a while since I’ve received a comment on this thread, but I’m happy that you have found it. Much of what you said resonated with me. Your Nixon comment put a big grin on my face.

    I’ve been learning about the causes of stress in one of my Masters classes. It turns out that distress often has a great deal to do with feelings of injustice. I got that sense from your comment; that you could no longer stomach the injustice of it all.

    I’m not sure how recently you have made this decision, but I’m going to assume that it was fairly recent. I wish that I could tell you that it all gets better and there isn’t going to be a hole in your life where your church experience used to be filled. I still haven’t found anything that has quite replaced the community that I experienced within Christianity. It’s been a fairly lonely road, with some occasional moments of true connection with people I run into that confess to similar feelings of doubt and incredulity.

    In fact, your comment today helps to remind me that I’m not nearly the freak that I sometimes feel like in the circles that I run in.

    If you care to connect further, you can find me on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/zac.parsons or on Twitter at @zride17.

    Thanks again Phil. I applaud you for seeking authenticity and genuineness with your children, and more importantly, yourself.

  • Pingback: Fasting for Ramadan as a non-Muslim – Day 4 | ZacParsons.com

  • tpos

    Kudos to you for answering with the truth! Do you mind sharing your son’s age? It seems like quite a deep conversation for a little kid lol (not that there’s anything wrong with that)

    It’s also interesting to see that going to church is such a big thing over there. I mean we see on tv etc but actually reading the blog and the conversation in the comments made me realise how true that is – and it’s kinda odd when compared to people over here.

    I’ve learnt something new – panentheism (well not yet, I’m going to go google it :p )

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    @Tpos – Wikipedia has some good information on panentheism. Just remember the “en” in the middle. I believe my son was five when we had that conversation. He turns seven next week. I love having deep conversations, and my son has just learned to go with it, I guess. :)

    Is the church really dead over there? Do you know many regular church-goers?

  • Kay

    Hi–I bumped into this blog post when reading about your Ramadan experiences. (I’m a Christian living in Saudi Arabia, and the stories I could tell about my 15 or so Ramadans in the heart of the Muslim world….)

    I just want to say first of all, what a breath of fresh air it was to read about someone actually thinking about their beliefs, not taking them for granted or simply dumping everything. Your thoughtfulness and sensitivity toward your son in allowing him the space to believe as you do or follow another direction shows great humility.

    When we look at God (if we believe in Him), we must keep in mind that He is “other.” If He and His actions don’t make sense to us, that’s because we’re finite and He is not. We should not really expect to be able to make sense of someone or something so completely outside our realm of comprehension. I don’t know where you stand on creation/evolution. But for me, when I sit with my cat on my lap, or even more (way more!), when I look at my children (4 of them, ages 15 – 20), I can not help but be awed by the miracle of life and growth and the amazing detail involved in every thing. I would be hard pressed to put myself in the same arena as the One who created a sunflower.

    The concept of hell is not easy to grapple with, no doubt. If you would be willing to read a book about what the Bible really says about it, I commend to you the book “Erasing Hell” by Francis Chan and Preston Sprinkle. It may not send you running back to “the Church,” but it may give you a perspective on what Christians should believe about hell, if they are willing to believe what the Bible actually says, and not what they themselves think ought to be true. Just a suggestion!

    Good luck with the rest of Ramadan. I hope that you will find it enlightening in every sense of the word!

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    @Kay – Thanks so much for reading the blog! I had the opportunity to teach and coach a boy from Saudi Arabia last year. He is very passionate and knowledgable about his culture. I’d love to come visit there someday.
    Thanks for your book suggestions. I will see if I can find that in my local library.
    I share the same amazement as you when it comes to marveling at the beauty and complexity of my children. However, I also shudder and cringe at the pain and torment that happens to people as well (children especially). I have heard many of the arguments for the existence and justification of evil, and I just cannot reconcile them to what I see in this world.
    Also, it’s tough for me to put my faith in a holy or magic book. I just can’t revere it like so many do. It’s got some wonderful wisdom, but I can’t say that it’s a perfect book, let alone written by God himself.
    My brother (who has been a missionary in Thailand, Japan, and other places) and I had a great back and forth about this in the comments of another post:
    http://www.zacparsons.com/2011/04/if-love-doesnt-win/
    If you would like to see some more of where I am coming from on this, that’s probably as good a place as any.
    Again, thank you for your comments and suggestions. I am glad for the peace and hope that you have in Jesus. I’m very much looking forward to being further enlightened from this experience, as you said.

  • tpos

    errm so panentheism = God is everything :S (that was a confusing read)

    Yeah, I think the church is pretty dead here, although I know a few regular goers but most people don’t go and I don’t think Christianity plays much of a part in our lives as British people, despite it being a ‘Christian country’. Oh apart from xmas, easter and being taught about it in schools.

  • tpos

    oh and 5? That’s young! your son’s gna be pretty intellectual when he grows up ;)

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    @Tpos – I like your definition of panentheism pretty well. I usually say “God in everything”. It’s almost Hindu in that regard. I sometimes think that everyone has a spark of the divine in them. That’s almost like the Star Wars concept of midichlorians.

    When you say that Christianity is taught in schools, do you mean in a historical context? Or as a philosophical world-view regarding science, ethics, and morality?

  • tpos

    yep, I did make a connection with Hinduism when reading that.

    I mean it’s taught as a religion – religious studies/education

    Also you get the odd assemblies (which I think by law should be like everyday, im not sure)

    When I was in primary school we used to have them everyday. They weren’t all directly linked to Christianity but we used to sing hymns (or just religious songs?) twice a week.

  • tpos

    I just remembered the Jehovahs’ Witnesses. They’re pretty active and also try their best to convert people by leafleting, knocking on doors and trying to have a chat etc.

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    The Jehovah’s Witnesses have been around for a while. I believe that Michael Jackson was one. Interesting.

  • Lilly

    Thats an interesting topic…really..someone once brought it up..I dont know if im ready to go into a full blown discussion/debate on this though..dont think i’ve thought about it enough…

    but the way my simpleton mind sees it is just like (the ideal) school. These are the rules, respect them and you get certificates, knowledge when you get out. Dont respect them and you get warning, warning, small punishments, big punishments…blah blah… Permanent Exclusion.

    The way i see it, God puts it ALL of the table, (a massive, kilometres long table) the good, the bad, the punishment, the rewards, etc.. and you gotta look at it all, because its ALL there. and when you stubbornly refuse to look then you get permanently excluded. Hell.

    young simpleton talking. pay no attention.