Fasting for Ramadan as a non-Muslim – Day 23

By on August 23, 2011 in Personal, Religion

I’ve really enjoyed the conversations that have sprung up from these blog posts over the last few weeks. I feel like I’m really getting a more nuanced and balanced view of Islam from all of this. My only lament is that I don’t have any Christians commenting along as well. I must take some responsibility for this. If the tone of my critiques of Christianity has been too harsh or unnecessary, I offer my sincere apologies. I only have my own experiences to go on, and those are further and further from my memory each day.

With that being said, I’ve been wondering a lot lately how both Christians and Muslims view the nature of humanity. Two approach it as a nice, neat dichotomy: are humans basically good? Or basically evil? Also, can there be good without God?

This past weekend, my son and I watched some of the 90′s X-Men cartoons together. He’s getting to that age where he can appreciate the continuity between episodes, and he’s able to follow story lines much easier. He’s pretty enthralled with the whole Marvel Universe right now. Next summer’s Avenger’s movie is running through his dreams already (much to his mother’s chagrin).

My son does not watch these movies quietly, though. Now, he’s not jumping around and flashing his Wolverine claws anymore. No, he can sit through the whole show, but he asks a ton of questions. Naturally, I love this about him.

After some considerable begging, I agreed to let him watch the live action X-Men movie on Saturday. The story opens up with a young teenage boy being separated from his parents during processing into a concentration camp in World War II. It’s pretty heartbreaking, but is shows the genesis of the worldview that that boy would eventually take, as Magneto, leader of the “bad guys”. Because of his treatment at the hands of the Nazis, the boy develops a distrust and animosity towards humans.

In his view, the natural course of human civilization is toward destruction, and he is more than happy to assist humanity in that endeavor. His former friend and current nemesis, Professor Xavier, believes that humans have a large capacity for good, and believes that mutants should work together and find the commonality in values between the two species.

I realize how much of a nerd I sound like right now, but my son really wanted to discuss all of this, and I was happy to oblige him. As a child, he believes that Professor X has the better philosophy, and that people are mostly good.

Is it childish for an adult to share such an opinion of the nature of humanity? I’ve been stunned at how much more I appreciate “the world” as a humanist than I ever did as a Christian.

So, Muslim friends: Is the world a beautiful place, filled with goodness and potential? Or is the world going to hell, and it is a matter of time before we all destroy ourselves? What say you Christians as well?

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  • anon

    You probably got more Islam than you bragained for!!! but I am impressed with your patience!

    I had been interested in Christianity because I wanted to know more about the wisdom teachings of Jesus Christi(pbuh). Perhaps some day Christians will stop looking at the trees and see the amazing forest……it would be very interesting to have a conversation then—there would be a lot of common ground to explore.

    Can there be good without God?—Nah! because there would be no creation without God/creator so concepts such as “good” would be unneccessary

    human nature—-Judaism also does not have original sin, and like us Muslims, they also believe we are inherently good. If we were to take a vote on this from world religions—I suspect your son’s perspective would win. If we observe babies and young children—it is impossible to believe that we are inherently wicked.

    Is the world great or not?—There is an interesting conversation in surah 2 between the Angels and God—God informs the angels he is creating a creature that will be his manager/representative on earth—and the angels exclaim—what!!! you’re going to send to earth a creature that will cause bloody mayhem?—when we (angels) so perfectly follow your will!!!.—considering the state of affairs we are in today— that is a question I wouldn’t mind asking God myself!!!!. (—and in case you are curious—Yes—God does answer)

    We have been created with the potential to make this world a beautiful place—We can see in our history the potential of one good person to make a difference—Dr. King, Mahatma Ghandi, Prophet Muhammed(pbuh)….etc. So if all humans got together with the same goal—-imagine what we could achieve!!!

  • tpos

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oxi8lJXqLP8&feature=player_embedded

    I’m listening to this atm, 10 mins in, and I think it’s answering your Q pretty well.

    everything that happens is by the Will of Allah…we don’t see the world as a cosmic battle between good and evil because the message of tawheed is that there is only one agent of creation.

    “The Christians say ‘God is love’, and immediately they can’t explain meningitis or concentration camps…we believe God is the most merciful but also the ‘overwhelming’, the ‘avenger’, the judge… and that is one reason why Islamic theology hangs together so well when confronted by paradox of evils and suffering, we believe that the world is the endlessly subtle interactions of the 99 names which include names of rigour as well as beauty”

    You know what, I’ve made this about good and evil, I’m not sure if it’s linked but I found it interesting so might as well share it.

    I was going to try and explain the above but I couldn’t put it into words, without confusing myself (never mind you!)

    Hmm this talk is quite deep, I may have to listen to it more than once to understand it properly.

  • tpos

    (paragraphs 2 and 3, above, are excerpts from the vid)

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    @Anon – No, I’m really glad to be getting this “taste of Islam” from first hand sources. When I taught World Religions last year, I had the students read a book (of course), but I also brought in two Muslim parents from the school to share their perspectives on their faith. It was a wonderful experience (as is this). :)

    Maybe I didn’t ask my question appropriately. Can one be/do good, without a conscious assent to God?

    I agree that we are inherently good. Or, as my question asks, that we can be good without God.

    Did you know that the whole “Love Wins” book began with a church member questioning whether Ghandi was righteous enough for heaven?

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    @Tpos – I’m watching this guy, and trying to like him, but he’s not quite my cup of tea.

    Obviously I can’t speak for all Christians, but a great number of them do believe in the judgmental nature of God.

    His take on the 99 names and natures of God seems to be a great source of peace and understanding, but for me it’s kind of a cop out. It’s as if anything that happens can be attributed to God: good, bad, or ugly. But at the same time, He has given humanity free will, and each human is responsible for his or her own choices.

    It is a deep talk, and he is a polished speaker. I see that he is quite learned, and I respect his dedication to his faith. I just disagree with some of his basic understandings on what is appropriate to attribute to God, and what is just random that we put onto a God because it is unsettling to imagine this wonderful earth without a driver.

  • anon

    Previously we went into the concept of Fitra—that everyone is born inherently good. Human beings are made of 3 components, the “self”/soul, the body, and the spirit. This concept of “spirit” is common to many religions—the Chineese call it the spirit that animates/life force (Qi, Chi), The Indians call it Prana,(life breath) and the Jews call it Ruach (God’s breath). In the Quran it is also called “Ruh”.(Spirit)

    This fast you have probably caught a glimpse of the connections between these 3 components. Our self/soul provides our ego/identity, our body provides our desires and our spirit provides our intuitive/instinct of goodness. The goal is to attain harmony and balance that can lead to peace.

    This spirit of goodness is everywhere—all human beings have it. That is why when we do bad—we are going against our inherent natures—-we “cover up” (kaffir) our goodness.

    A person who has not recieved any guidance—will also instinctively/intuitively comprehend goodness. This means that there is no excuse for normal human beings to be bad.

  • tpos

    (I didn’t listen to him beyond those 10mins…but I will hopefully)

    I was thinking about the attribute thing and I agree with you – which is why I confused myself when I tried explaining what he meant – it didn’t make sense to me.

    I think what he’s getting at is that everything is God’s will.

    I believe that everyone is born good (due to fitra) and it is just their freewill which leads them do bad.

  • Lilly

    its a scary thought to think that the world is inherently bad. even if its not true, i’d rather believe there is goodness everywhere. else its not worth it.

    @Mr Zac, i dont know if there’s a misunderstanding but the 99names of Allah werent manmad, they were revealed by God. He told us those names.

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    @Lilly – I guess this depends upon perspective and how well one can trust another person’s testimony. Since neither of us has “seen” or “heard” God with our actual physical senses, we are really just choosing to trust or not trust in what someone else claims to have experienced about God.

    Does that make sense?

  • tpos

    Your point of view makes sense but from a Muslim’s point of view they would argue that they have heard God – through the Qur’an. No not just because someone said “it is the word of God” but because reading it, it does not sound like something a man’s word…

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    @Tpos – Yes. Christians would say the same thing about the Bible. Mormon’s would also believe this about the Book of Mormon and some other sacred texts.

    That’s what I was trying to imply by saying that it comes down to perspective.

    I think that we are in agreement here. :)

  • tpos

    But not all Christians believe it’s the *actual* word of God, do they?

    How come it’s changed over the years then?

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    @Tpos – I’d say that 99% of the the Christians that I know believe that the Bible is the *actual* word of God. What do you mean by it changing over the years? Are you talking about translations into different languages?

  • tpos

    99% of Christians that you know? Do you think that reflects the bigger Christian community? Cuz I know some people think they are just stories teaching morals but not by God and others believe it is a historic document and can have been changed-shoudn’t be taken literally. This is a ‘fundamentalist’/'Liberal’ split?

    I meant that the word of the Bible has changed, yes through translations etc. ignore though.

  • tpos

    ohh it doesn’t let me strike through what I wrote.

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    @Tpos – Yeah, I wish that my comments had strikethrough. Maybe I can find a plug-in for that soon.

    I can only speak for the Christians that I know. Also, there was a time when I spent a lot of energy researching different Christian churches and organizations for employment. To make sure that my “liberal” beliefs would be tolerated, I would always check the church/organization’s statement of beliefs. Again, about 99% of these organizations would have a statement of faith that included something like: “We believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God. In the original text, it is the truth without any mixture of error.”

    However, I have heard that European Christians are more liberal than American Christians. I’ve heard that Europe is a post-Christian continent.

    For Islam, would one have to learn Arabic in order to read the Koran?

  • tpos

    Yeah, I can only speak for what I know of England, and as I said before it isn’t very religion focused.

    Sorry, I can’t remember where you mentioned it (probably should subscribe, it’s a hassle trying to find replies!) but you called yourself a post-modernist? How does that affect religion/Christianity?

  • tpos

    Yes, you would need to learn arabic to read the Qur’an, but you can read the english translation of it. Note:- We do not believe the translation can ever be the same as the arabic, original.

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    @Tpos – Post-modernism has a lot to do with embracing relative truth instead of absolute truth. It acknowledges all of our own individual and culturally specific perspectives.

    What does one do with someone who is illiterate? Also, what do Muslims do with people who have a mental disability and are unable to read/understand the Qur’an?

  • tpos

    If someone is illiterate they are taught how to read the five daily prayers and other prayers etc. There is no obligation to read all the Qur’an, but just enough to be able to read the 5 prayers. Other rules etc can be taught in other ways.

    Like I said, it is not obligatory to read any more Qur’an than the 5 prayers – however one condition of praying them is that the person is sane. If the person is not sane then they are exempt from praying.

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    @Tpos – Thx.

    Does Islam have any sort of explanation for birth defects or mental retardation? I guess, it is somehow a part of God’s plan?

  • Tpos

    Erm yes,and it’s a test. On the ‘positive’ side, pain/illness is seen to cleanse a person of their sins.

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    @Tpos – If that explanation gives you comfort, then I will leave it at that.

  • tpos

    lol, my ‘erm’ was because I didn’t think you’d appreciate that answer.

    In all honesty, I have had trouble with this ‘life is a test’ thing but I accept it. It makes more sense to me than anything else. I just don’t see the point sometimes – WHY did God need to make us?!!!!!! Well He didn’t need to. He just could and did. :?

    Narrated Abu Sa’id Al-Khudri and Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “No fatigue, nor disease, nor sorrow, nor sadness, nor hurt, nor distress befalls a Muslim, even if it were the prick he receives from a thorn, but that Allah expiates some of his sins for that.” << I do find that rather comforting :D

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    @Tpos – I see. Thx for being honest.

    Again, I’m just wanting to learn here. These kinds of questions are tough for me. I think that it comes back to a question of how much God is in control of, and how much is just…. “chance” (for lack of a better term).

    There were times in my life where I would see a circumstance come together and think: “Praise God! What a wonderful act of divine intervention!” Other times, I would think: “Wow, if there is a God, He is surely asleep at the wheel right now. I don’t want to worship a God that allows this to happen.”

  • tpos

    God is always in control but bad things happen because people have freedom of choice.

    And “it is all a test to see how well we deal with adversity” and those who do bad will be dealt with on the day of judgement….that’s why divine justice is needed…

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    @Tpos – “God is always in control but bad things happen because people have freedom of choice.” To me, this is saying that the person with the freedom of choice is really in control. Otherwise, there really isn’t a freedom to choose. Does that seem to be a contradiction to you? Or more of a paradox?

  • Lilly

    havent replied here in a looonnnggg time. about the names of Allah being revealed. well… when you read the biography of the prophet pbuh and just generally find out more about this man…i dont know..but i trust it completely. plus, he had SO many ennemies trying to find flaws in everything he was doing. yet they didnt manage to. and he’s dead and we can’t “test” him according to our “modern” ways now but i dont think he would fail those “tests” anyway. and there’s always the Quran to test if you want to test anything.

    Mr Zac said: “Wow, if there is a God, He is surely asleep at the wheel right now. I don’t want to worship a God that allows this to happen.”” well..a muslim would see this hardship situation in different lights, chosing the explanation that seems to befit more: it could be a punishment (if the situation apply to the person, not to others, we cant judge others like this), it could be a test – if they hold on to their faith they will be retributed and rewarded (in this life or the next) and yes, the belief of hereafter IS needed, but this world isnt perfect, and without a “hereafter” life wouldnt be worth it/wouldnt be fair.

    and its not like “oh, here’s a test for you let’s see how you deal with it” its again a two way thing. you get your sins forgiven, you get to become closer to God; you GAIN from this “test”.

    and about the God with total control vs. Human free will. IT’s like…God KNOWS what choices we’re going to make. He just lets us make them. just like, i dont know, a teacher could do that. make us research/experiment with something he/she knows is wrong but through which we will come to the conclusion/understnading of what is right and when we DO get to that conclusion we will have a deeper understanding of the whole process, and come out smarter on awhole new level that covers a lot more than if he/she had just told us: “this is that and from that this ahppens, learn that by heart”.

    and about what tpos said: i think its divine and ABSOLUTE justice. from the beginning to the end. and i dont think a human judge with all his/her flaws would be able to judge anything on this scale, forget being just between each and every human beings, then there’s giving justice to each human beings on a personal level… plus why would anyone do this? its got nowt to do with them, its between the person and God. because God is out of it, over it, above it. I think everyone needs a “perfect” being in their lives, our heart yearns for perfection and that can only be found in God.

  • http://www.zacparsons.com Zac

    @Lilly – I hope that I didn’t imply that my view was the only way in which to frame suffering and pain. I acknowledge that Islam has an explanation for all of this, but for me it just assumes too many things that aren’t/cannot be known empirically. Any gaps in understanding are filled in with Allah. Even the benefits to suffering that you mention are tied to a relationship with Allah. But they cannot be measured, so it’s hard for me to make that leap of faith.

  • Lilly

    just reread my answeer..And its a RUBBISH one!! gaawwd!! I’m useless at this stuff.. but please, dont believe its because Islam is not rational and makes totalsense, its coz i dont have the power/knowledge/understanding to explain it. but! I’m going to keep learning!

    I’m giving you the wrong picture of Islam…I really am… while re-reading my answer i realised it was a lot about “invisible” stuff as your answer shows.. but.. it’s not like this.. remember..I’m just a random 17 years old who’s just getting into the whole religion thing and who havent been a very good student anyway.. :/

    but, if i may ask you, don’t give up on Islam just yet, and don’t rely on the common muslims you know, try and check out some scholarly articles and books…please.. i dont know if this is a rude thing to ask or if its not something you do but i think if you’re going to make your mind up about Islam, dont do it based on what common muslims have told you.

    just something i was reading not long ago (in a book so going to be typing it all up):

    “man: the free agent

    man is the highest creation of God. He is equipped with the highest of potentialities (is that even a word..some of the meanings get lost in translation me think..) He is left relatively free in his will, action and choice. God has shown him the right path, and the life of the prophet Muhammad provides a perfect example. Man’s success and salvation lies in following both. Islam teaches the sanctity of human personality and conferrs equal rights upon all without any distinction of race, sex or colour.
    The law of God, enunciated in the Qur’an and exemplified in the life of the prophet, is supreme in all cases. It applies equally to the highest and lowest, the prince and the peasant, the ruler and the ruled.”

  • Anonymous

    @Lilly – Your answer is not rubbish! I highly value your opinion. If anything, I would value the opinion of a “common” muslim more than a “professional” one. I don’t mean to call your beliefs nonsensical or non-rational or anything like that. I just have real issues with theism in general.

    I am going to continue to investigate Islam, but I will also continue to investigate other ways of truth as well. Please don’t feel as if you have failed to present Islam in a positive light (you are actually great at that!).

  • Tpos

    Whenever I read the word ‘empirical’ in such discussions I remember this vid

  • Tpos

    Maybe it’s a paradox…my head can’t seem to get around this concept, it seems simple enough but I don’t get it! lol

    But this is how freedome of choice works

    God makes the world, time

    When He made humans, He gave us this freedom of choice in which we are able to choose whatever we want.

    God gave us that capability.

    Since He created the world and time, He does not exist within it and therefore knows what we are going to choose, beforehand.

    If He wishes He could stop us doing whatever we’re doing.

    Is that any different to what you already thought?

  • Anonymous

    That’s the same guy that you had linked to before, right? I sometimes get lost in his train of thought as he presents his case. I almost wish that I could ask him some questions in the midst of his presentation. He seems to be a bit reductionist in his understanding of empiricism, and I’m not sure if it’s totally fair to juxtapose it with rationalism. 

    However, I do like listening to him. He seems like a pretty cool guy.

  • Anonymous

    Hmmm. To me, that seems to imply that God doesn’t really interact in human affairs. If he did, then that would violate free will. 

    I think that I just have a problem with God creating an option that is something other than “good”. Call it evil or whatever, I just don’t know how God can create that out of nothing unless he is evil himself. Does that make sense?

  • Tpos

    reductionist? why do you say that?

    yep same guy. What did you think of the humanism vid? Do you like his accent too? :p

  • Tpos

    Ok, yeah I understand where you’e coming from but I wasn’t sure how to explain it – as I didn’t understand properly myself either. But I asked someone to clarify and now I do get it.

    God can and may interfere with human affairs as His interference may not be something which can be seen or pointed out, it is only when people start to do something different that we notice it – God is too big for us to notice such a thing.

    This does not violate freewill since God exists outside of time and knows what you want/need/whatever you’re going to pray for so may even “create the path to help you out through natural processes where the processs starts way before you even prayed to God.” 
    There are also natural disasters etc…Well, I think I’ve said this before? But evil is needed to recognise good, if we didn’t have evil we wouldn’t be able to do good…but you’re talking about something slightly different…God has created good too – so does that make Him both evil and good?

  • Anonymous

    Well, I was going to say that it was something of a false dichotomy, but it’s a pretty regular comparison in philosophy, so I will grant that. I guess it comes back to wanting to see him interact with an atheist (or an empiricist, at least), just to get a better idea of the position that he is setting up to argue against. Does that make sense?

    Yes, he has a fine accent. I can’t quite place it, but it is pleasant to listen to. ;)

    I just can’t really seem to embrace the magic of any book. I’ve heard similar arguments for the bible and it’s divine origin. Because the Qur’an is penned by a human hand, in a human language, it seems to limited for me to embrace it as a divine form of communication. 

    Humanism still makes the most sense to me, but I do enjoy the conversation about it all!

  • Tpos

    Do you mean you’d like to hear him debate the whole empirical thing out with an atheist? He probably has, its probs on youtube.
    If it wasn’t in a human language how would humans understand it? 

  • Anonymous

    Maybe debate is the wrong word. I think I just like to see him have a conversation with an atheist or a humanist. Debates can be rather detached.

    I just think that human language has some real limits. There are nonverbal ways that people can communicate with each other much more deeply than with words. I would like to think that a God can communicate in a better way that that.

  • Tpos

    Sorry I keep using the word debate instead of conversation/dialogue. Im sure there’s such stuff being and already been done. Have a search :)

    What sort of better way?

  • Anonymous

    A way that doesn’t involve the limitation of language. Perhaps through prayer or meditation. Perhaps through a miracle.

  • Tpos

    What is the prayer going to be said in? :S how would you get an answer just by mediating – you would only be asking yourself Qs.

    The miracles are all around us…

  • Anonymous

    English. ;)

    First off, I LOVED the video. Very, very honest and funny. I would probably have the same reaction as that man’s family. I’d be very encouraging of anything that had such a positive effect on his behavior. 

    Secondly, you mention that I would be only asking myself questions. In a way, I believe that is what we all do. Even though the video shows that he asked a Muslim teacher about his own opinion and ended up believing that the Qur’an was the word of God (no opinion greater than that), I disagree.

    There is not just one version of the Qur’an. Everyone has their own version. Look at how many times he references Muslims as terrorists to be feared. Those folks have obviously taken something different from the Qur’an than what you, Lilly, Adeq, and Anon have taken. 

    There was even an incident yesterday regarding an individual’s unique interpretation of the Qur’an.

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/09/29/ashland_man_charged_in_terrorist_plot/

    No matter what seems to be the “truth”, we all perceive and interpret information based on what we already know and believe, and the emotions that are tied to those experiences.

    Even a prayer to God results in some sort of personally biased understanding of a response.

    Do you agree with any of this?

  • Tpos

    I agree that the vid is brilliant! :p

    I get where you’re coming from but I mean if you had nothing to read and compare and eventually choose from, you wouldn’t be able to find the answer on your own. You may think and think and think but until there is something you’re basing your opinion on, you’re just going to be lost aren’t you?
    And yes everyone does perceive things differently but there are only slight variations. Might be a stupid example to use, but you can understand what I’m saying (almost?) exactly as I want you to, you understand other newspapers, magazines and books like this too. So you can also understand a holy book the same way too. The difference of opinion only arises when you read it wrongly. Now you’re probably going to be like, “what is wrong, how do you identify something in a holy book as being wrong”, well firstly  people should start reading with context! I mean it’d be ridiculous opening up a fiction book right in the middle and expecting to know what’s going, it would take a little while to work out whats happening. Also if you’re using a different language you gotta ensure you’re using the right grammar, dialect or whatever otherwise the translations obviously going to be wrong. If people bothered to take these things into account you wouldn’t have such ridiculous opinions!

    Yeah, I think I agree with perceiving things based on our experience – thats the best way that we can understand them, I suppose.
    I sort of agree with the prayer to God thing – Sometimes it will be obvious and a direct response  other times maybe not, IMO

  • Lilly

    i…dont remember reading what i quotes above….